CNN Interview
CNN. April 13, 1999
The following is an edited transcript of a chat with Ronna Lichtenberg, author of "Work Would be Great if it Weren’t for the People," held Tuesday, May 18, 1999.
Chat Moderator: Hi, Ronna, and welcome to our chat room!
Chat Participant <AnnD>: Hi, Ronna, welcome.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Tell me, how was your day was at work?
Chat Participant <Nick>: Tiring.
Chat Participant <Kristen>: Same.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: Oh my, Ronna, I am lying low. :))
Ronna Lichtenberg: Was it because of the work or because of the people?
Chat Participant <Nick>: Both. Mainly the people.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Nick, tell me more about the people. Is it one person that's the problem?
Chat Participant <Nick>: Oh no, it's almost all of them.
Ronna Lichtenberg: What about them is the most energy-draining for you? Do they give you a hard time, or do they just expect you to do too much?
Chat Participant <Nick>: They yell at people, expect me to do their work, stuff like that.
Ronna Lichtenberg: They yell at people? That's bad.
Chat Participant <Nick>: They're immature.
Ronna Lichtenberg: If it's co-workers that expect you to do their work, you can learn how to set some boundaries. It's tougher, of course, if it's your boss.
Chat Participant <slow>: It doesn't matter where you are or how many people are nice, there's always that one person who screws your day up.
Ronna Lichtenberg: That's true!!!
Chat Participant <Rory>: Is there an effective way to make your point with a passive-aggressive person without getting bent out of shape yourself?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Rory, the first thing is to remember that they won't like it when you make your point and they will find little annoying ways to punish you if you don't do what they want you to do. Knowing and expecting this sometimes makes it easier.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: You know my boss, Ronna? <G>
Chat Participant <AnnD>: Ronna, do you find that the supervisors in most places now are more overbearing than in the past?
Ronna Lichtenberg: I can tell you that everyone I hear from tells me that their boss is an idiot. The hardest thing about working for an idiot is that the only way to succeed is making the idiot look better.
Chat Participant <FedUp>: Do women make better bosses?
Ronna Lichtenberg: I hear every variation on this, sometimes in the same day. I think it depends really on the individual. I hear from women who like to work for other women, men who like to work for women and men and women who hate to work for a bitch, same for male bosses. One gender difference in bosses is that women bosses seem less likely to pursue romantic involvement with their subordinates. For example, their interns!!!
Chat Participant <Lucy>: Do all the work for an idiot, and they will take the credit. How do you succeed by doing that?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Once the idiot depends on you, it's in the idiot's interest to give you more money to keep you there. But there are ways you can make sure your ideas get out there. For example, try to save talking about your best ideas until there's another person present.
Chat Participant <Candyce>: How do you prevent resentments from overshadowing your work? I know the best way is to be up front, but what if the person holds power over your job?
Ronna Lichtenberg: When you say resentment, do you mean jealousy? Can you tell me more, please, about the situation?
Chat Participant <Candyce>: No, for example, maybe a micromanager type who gets in the way of a job that you are capable of doing well.
Ronna Lichtenberg: The best way to handle that is to try to negotiatean agreement about tasks in advance so that you can give her updates in advance of her or him getting nervous and tormenting you.
Chat Participant <Haley>: Working in a hospital, it feels like I have numerous bosses. Doctors, hospital director, etc. My question is what to do when a doctor, in order to look good in front of patients, will deny, for instance, that nurses called him as the patient requested, or will say that the doctor didn’t make rounds because the nurses didn’t list the patient on his list of names, etc.
Ronna Lichtenberg: That's disgusting, and most of the time it doesn't matter. Your boss is the person who controls your compensation. The rest of them are just people you have to keep happy. It's OK after someone does something like that to talk to them in private and tell them they should have found another way to handle the situation.
Chat Participant <Lucy>: Do you give any advice in your book about how to deal with co-workers that you may not like, but have to work with? (other than quit!)
Ronna Lichtenberg: Yes, there is lots of advice about dealing with people you can't stand. One thing I've done with great success is give their name to headhunters.
Chat Participant <Pamela>: My question is how do you handle a promotion if you work with friends and your friends were up for the same job?
Ronna Lichtenberg: That is really tough, and it's one reason why I tellpeople it's really tough to mix friendship and work. Once a friend reports to you, your friendship will not be the same. The most you can hope for is to keep it cordial and leave the door open for resuming your friendship later.
Chat Participant <FedUp>: Does Ronna have a boss?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Not now, but I had bosses for more than 20 years. Now I have clients ... and editors, who are as bad as bosses.
Chat Moderator: What is your worst on-the-job horror story?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Personally the worst thing that ever happened to me was losing a friend over my doing well at work when she was doing badly. That caused tremendous pain.
Ronna Lichtenberg: The worst thing that happened to my husband was losing out in a reorganization to someone who was sexuallyinvolved with the boss.
Chat Participant <Lucy>: How did you come to write a book on this topic?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Everyone always asks me for advice, and I couldn't find a book written by someone who has been through this, so I decided I would do it myself. I have learned since then that whenever there are three people or more working together there is office politics, and even though we feel our situation is uniquely tough, there are patterns common to almost every workplace.
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: How do you define office politics?
Ronna Lichtenberg: The common definition is anything people do to us at work that we don't like, but I think it is just the human process of sorting out different needs and desires.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: You mentioned whistle-blowers. Do you believe it is better to lie low when one might believe that there is fraud going on?
Ronna Lichtenberg: No. I believe it's essential, though, to be preparedfor a strongly negative reaction from your employer. There's always a risk that when you blow the whistle they will see you as the enemy.Because then they’re likely to do the same, and confrontations create hurt feelings.
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: How do you separate personal and professional feelings?
Ronna Lichtenberg: That's actually the topic of my next book, and I'm finding in interviews that it's getting tougher for people to do that. Are you finding that that is the case?
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: Yes!!
Ronna Lichtenberg: Do you work in a large organization?
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: Yes.
Ronna Lichtenberg: I ask because it seems tougher in certain kinds of organizations than others. My guess is that what's hard for you is handling disagreements in a productive way. Is that so? Can you give me an example that I might be able to help you with?
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: I have problems with confronting people about what’s bothering me.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Try to present your point of view in terms of goals and objectives, so that it isn't just about you. For example, "I'm concerned that if we don't get X done on time, we won't meet our deadline" instead of "I can't believe you blew another deadline and left me holding the bag."
Chat Participant <Haley>: Ronna, do you think some are not meant to be bosses? I think I would have difficulty being "chief," yet I think I’m a great Indian. Problem there would be the degree of validation, for loss of a better word. "Chief and Indian" being equal in education yet not in salary often divides co-workers.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Not everyone can be a great boss, but most people can be leaders in specific situations for specific projects. It's really a question of whether or not you want to leave work at the end of the day and have it be over with or if you want the psychological burden of having responsibility for other people.
Ronna Lichtenberg: It doesn't matter if your boss has the same education and experience you do. The boss gets paid more because they have more responsibility for results.
Chat Participant <Haley>: Great points.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Thank you.
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: How do you deal with resentment of that, though?
Ronna Lichtenberg: By remembering that you are free to try for a job like that yourself, even if it is somewhere else. It is your choice to stay someplace you don't feel recognizes your market value.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: What happens to those who are near retirement, and the general knowledge is that they will do anything to get one out by making one's life miserable?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Do you mean they are looking for a retirement package?
Chat Participant <AnnD>: Yes, benefits are essential to the retirees nowadays, such as hospital insurance.
Ronna Lichtenberg: I've been in situations like that and had good success trying to help them get what they want. Sometimes you can come up with a creative solution like getting them assigned full time to a special project that they might even enjoy.
Ronna Lichtenberg: If they are within a year of retirement, there are enough legal issues that most employers won't fire them, but most of them welcome some idea of how to get a productive last year out of these people.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: I'm talking more specifically about one who is quite able and capable of doing their job, but the agency would rather the person quit than get what they have worked years for.
Ronna Lichtenberg: If they are retirement-eligible, the agency is being stupid. They run the risk of a lawsuit.
Chat Participant <Haley>: Looking back at some posts, I think a lot of what was said would also apply to a successful marriage.
Chat Participant <Candyce>: This is good relationship advice in general, don't you think?
Ronna Lichtenberg: I think so, too. I learned a lot from my husband and my kids about how to negotiate disagreements and how to convinceother people that doing what you want is a good idea. Sometimes I think having kids is the best possible training in the world for being in management. The issues are often very similar.
Chat Participant <Jeannie>: What do you recommend for someone looking for a job? What jobs seem to have less personality problems?
Ronna Lichtenberg: Jobs where you work alone. Most places now are undergoing change one way or another, so there's no place to hide from office politics. That's why I think it's more important than ever to learnhow to manage it.
Chat Participant <Candyce>: I hope you'll come back sometime. This has been very interesting.
Ronna Lichtenberg: I would be happy to come back if I'm asked.
Chat Participant <AnnD>: Thanks, Ronna, you have been a big morale booster.
Ronna Lichtenberg: Oh, good!! Part of why I do this is to help peopleget through the day a little easier and a little better. It makes me feel like what I'm doing matters, which I guess is what we all want from our work.
Chat Moderator: Thank you for joining us, Ronna. And thank you, chatters, for your excellent questions.
Ronna Lichtenberg: This was a terrific chat!!! I've done some real duds!! Nothing is worse than a chat where nobody else is chatting. It's every author's nightmare!!!